“I would like to return to the academy of the 80s”
Russian scientists feel increased attention from the leadership, but experience a deficit in scientific cooperation. Despite the noticeable strengthening of universities, only 0.5 percent of their graduates go into science…
We talked about the pros and cons of the current state of domestic science with the director of the Physics Institute. Lebedev, corresponding member of the RAS Nikolai KOLACHEVSKY.
Nikolai Kolachevsky. Photo: FIAN
— It began with the notorious reform of the Russian Academy of Sciences, when all academic institutions suddenly were transferred under the management of FANO (Federal Agency of Scientific Organizations. -). It was a very painful moment. Officials tried to establish other principles for the success of institutions, dividing them into categories.
The main problem, in my opinion, was that FANO sought to stimulate the development of science in the country exclusively through management methods with the old amount of funding. They hoped to find money as a result of optimizing the previous system of institutions, closing “ineffective and unnecessary ones.” This didn't work in my opinion.
From experience I can say with complete confidence: if you do not invest additional resources, especially in the natural sciences, management methods alone will lead to nothing. To do good science, you need to attract people with additional grants, mega-grants, purchase modern equipment, build new laboratories.
— This is true. They just forgot to say that, having closed one unpromising direction, for example, the plasma tokomak, they immediately opened two new ones and transferred all the employees from the first to a new front of work. In our country, nothing like this was possible for “downsized” research staff — some of them eventually left the country, some went to other areas of activity. As a result, we are now acutely short of personnel. We are still experiencing a generational crisis, which is especially felt in the field of solid state physics, in microelectronics.
— Because it has been and remains in great demand all over the world since the second half of the 80s. And where the best conditions for its development were offered, specialists went there. As you understand, this was not our country. Strange, right? The most popular field in the world, everyone uses computers, everyone has a smartphone in their pocket, but we have almost nothing scientifically, as with genetics once — an empty field.
The number of scientific organizations currently working in this direction can be counted on one hand. For example, in the brightest, metropolitan region, these are the Institute of Solid State Physics in Chernogolovka near Moscow, the Institute of Physical Problems named after. P.I. Kapitsa, our FIAN, the academic institute INME created in the early 2000s, small scientific departments in universities such as Moscow State University. M.V. Lomonosov, MIPT, MIET, and a number of structures subordinate to Rosatom, but for solid state physics with its wide range of problems this is a drop in the bucket. Moreover, there are a lot of theorists, but we need practical experimenters, and this is the basis for microelectronics, and not only.
— In the regions it is a little more positive — people from there were not so active in traveling abroad . Although in general the situation everywhere leaves much to be desired: the middle generation has fallen out, leaving only those over 70 and green youth, yesterday's students and graduate students who are just embarking on the scientific path.
So we, the organizers, are racking our brains about how to manage to attract and entice young people into science while there are still experienced mentors on the ground. And not just to captivate, but to motivate to stay here, to become a real new generation of scientists.
“There are now many projects to support talented youth, and they are multiplying every year. There is also an attempt to bring back our former colleagues from abroad; new laboratories are being created for them, however, the scale of this vector, alas, does not correspond to the scale of the problem. Here I would like to cite the example of China with its powerful program for the return of compatriots.
— As in many other scientific organizations, they are retained by interesting tasks and the creation of a comfortable environment. For example, we rely on guys who have just defended their Ph.D. thesis. A person has just grown out of short pants, and he is already offered a development work or a serious project, for example, the creation of the Millimetron space research station, our quantum computer.
— Yes , launched and simulated a simple molecule on it. But it was made by guys who are all around 30 years old.
— The work is being carried out within the framework of the Roadmap for Quantum Computing of Rosatom, a very important project managed by Rosatom and the Ministry of Digital Development. And in general, control over budget funds has increased; money is given mainly for R&D. As for the previous stage of development — R&D (scientific research work — author), we, as a rule, spend money on it from the state assignment. They are allocated for three years, and within the framework of this work, the institute cannot deviate a single step from planned research. For example, he said to measure the spectrum of some substance, which means that’s all he should do. If you measure the spectrum of someone else, you may not get credit for it. Therefore, scientists avoid improvisations, although — we know this from the history of science — it is accidents driven by the scientist’s intuition that often lead to amazing discoveries.
— Yes, this is one of its elements. And, by the way, in the days of the old RAS there was more freedom with this, now everything is more regulated.
— The scientific environment is still adapting to existing conditions. In recent years, many managers have mastered the art of creating administrative and scientific barriers, which, like car shock absorbers, should protect against unnecessary cobblestones on the road that interfere with a smooth ride. Such shock absorbers are professional managers who today spend a significant part of their lives smoothing out incomprehensible situations, being in constant dialogue with officials of the Ministry of Education and Science. It is they who, by taking upon themselves the solution of all administrative problems, free the hands of the scientific team — they can create more freely.
< p>— I would say that we still have not agreed. Despite the fact that a lot of time has passed, a year and a half, since the beginning of the SVO, and many foreign journals have banned our employees from publishing with them, there are still those that continue to accept our articles. There is also a so-called white list of journals in which our scientists are recommended to publish — it mixes both foreign (among them there are quite highly rated ones) and our publications. Thanks to this, by the way, the ratings of many Russian magazines have increased significantly; we publish a third of our articles in them.
— It turns out that way. But the authors themselves, as real creators of something new, as artists or composers, want as many people around the world as possible to know about their creation. But, on the other hand, the need for reverse technologies is now particularly acute for the country. This is a complementary task. We must develop devices or microcircuits that, most likely, someone has already made before us. Those who are accustomed to increasing their rating only with articles are faced with the question: is it science when you are working on a well-known technology and therefore cannot publish an article about new results?
Ilya Semerikov in front of his brainchild — a 16-qubit quantum computer using ytterbium ions. Photo: FIAN
—I think that this is also a very complex scientific activity, which should be judged on its merits. And everyone is now looking for an answer to the question — how exactly to evaluate it?
— Right now they are trying to establish such an assessment system; all that is needed is appropriate expertise. I know that the new leadership of the Russian Academy of Sciences is making a lot of efforts to convey to everyone that both reverse technologies and technologies in general are no less important, and maybe even more important, than increasing publication activity. But the devil is in the details. They tell us: “Show me the results.” And it is often difficult to demonstrate.
— Because as soon as we start creating something material, the controlling structures (and there are a lot of them, from the Ministry of Education and Science and Rospatent to the prosecutor’s office) immediately have many questions. For example, if a scientist created a device for the treatment of oncology, questions immediately begin to pour in on him, in particular, whether he spent extra money, whether he held a tender, choosing spare parts and a co-performer of the work, whether he patented the development correctly, whether he received licenses, etc. It’s much easier with articles.
—That’s the point. And the scientist should feel free to choose his tools, protected from all sides. In addition, you have the right to make mistakes.
“Many scientists have never encountered state requirements for experimental design work, and when they learn about them, they are not ready to work, observing a sea of often meaningless formal requirements and under pressure from regulatory structures. But nevertheless, the Ministry of Education and Science launched a scientific instrumentation program, and money was allocated for the creation of lithographs, dissolution cryostats, quantum sensors, and DNA sequencers. Work is already in full swing in a number of areas.
— This story, I hope, will have a happy ending. About a year ago, we transferred our original development (it is not reversible) to the so-called industrial partner — Rosatom. He attracted specialists who, under our scientific leadership, should begin supplying domestic MRIs to hospitals in 3 years.
— This is electronics, the one that is responsible for receiving radio frequency signals from the patient’s body. We have to develop it from scratch.
— The Chinese are selling for now, but they are trying to do it in such a way as not to expose themselves and transfer their technology. All this complicates the process and lengthens the time frame. But in general, if there are options for cooperation, there is no need to refuse them.
— Of course, in the longer term, evolutionarily, we should strive to do a lot ourselves. The Chinese are unique in this sense; they worked for a long time to create a very rigid internal core of their own industrial independence. Now they are trying to squeeze them, but the country’s successes are so bright in many areas that in terms of scientific power, China has already overtaken Europe and now shares parity only with the United States.
We often cannot master even the most necessary things, which and it lies right under our noses. I recently learned that despite the huge deposits of lithium, we not only did not make electric batteries ourselves, but until recently we did not even think about developing these deposits! We are only now starting this work.
An equally critical area, in my opinion, is the production of our own LEDs. If they refuse to supply us with them, will we switch to incandescent lamps again? Of course, such impasses, at least in a number of the most important areas, must be overcome as quickly as possible, and, fortunately, the current leaders of the Russian Academy of Sciences, who carry out the scientific and methodological management of all institutes of the country, understand this and conduct a dialogue with government officials in the right way. But just recently it was almost impossible to “break through” officials with their “we will buy everything” position.
Evgeny Demikhov — developer of the MRI unit
— Despite the fact that science in universities has been improved thanks to a number of adopted programs, I am concerned that the number of scientists, to put it mildly, is not growing. It’s good if 0.5 percent of students now go into science. And even for this we make great efforts.
— My version: we simply do not advertise the future conditions of our scientists much enough. But they are actually already quite good.
— I can’t speak for all areas of science (I don’t rule out that in some places junior researchers receive less), but in natural science research institutes, if a young specialist is active, he receives an average of 60–70 thousand a month.
— Median income can be provided by a published article or connection to a grant. For example, even bachelors from one of the universities where we have a basic department come to us with a starting 30 thousand rubles. In the process of work, if a person shows his good side and joins promising projects such as a quantum computer or a proton accelerator for medical purposes, his salary can grow to 100–200 thousand rubles.
“I think that I would like to return with the institute to that academy, which I missed due to my age. These are the 80s, when many scientists of the department of physical sciences were young and burning with ideas, when Vitaly Lazarevich Ginzburg, students of Lev Davidovich Landau, Alexander Fedorovich Andreev, full of strength, were alive, when the school of laser physics flourished under the leadership of Nikolai Gennadievich Basov and Alexei Mikhailovich Prokhorov , when Nikolai Semenovich Kardashev dreamed of the “Radio Satron” project.
Nowadays we physicists lack those who were violent in the good sense of the word, as the people I named were then. And these can be mostly young people. I'll give you an example from my practice. About five years ago, when I was giving lectures on quantum information at MIPT, a guy from the field of theoretical physics came to us and said: “I want to make a quantum computer.” «How so? After all, just yesterday you dreamed of black hole collisions and the study of the Universe! — I tell him. “These are different spheres, can you handle it?” He stands his ground. He had to support him, and after that five more people joined him, a whole group was formed, which began to do what they loved. And in 2023, just five years after our dialogue, Ilya Semerikov already reported to Vladimir Vladimirovich himself about the creation of a quantum computer.
“Such people need to be noticed.” They are like greenhouse plants from a greenhouse: they grow and do nothing but gain knowledge. First, 11 years in physics and mathematics classes, then, having won the Olympiads, they enter a leading university, where they study for more than five years, without even having time to look at the girls. Afterwards, they find themselves in an academic environment and, ideally, should do there what they were raised for—scientific creativity. They have little understanding of the world around them, but they know very well what interests them and what they are truly strong at.
— Yes. I really began to understand a lot of things when I became a manager: ordinary life is structured differently, there are purchases, money, responsibility and sometimes very complex human relationships. And understanding this, as well as the fact that our young guys still cannot avoid meeting real life, we try to protect talented young scientists, at least in our institute, from all adversity as much as possible, they are like hothouse cucumbers — they don’t know what’s behind the glass It might be cold (smiles).
By the way, for a long time, IT specialists, not only in the West, but also in our leading companies, have, you won’t believe it… office nannies, specially hired employees who take care of the working atmosphere in a large complex team, if necessary, They bring tea and coffee and sometimes slippers to valuable employees.
Today, IT specialists have both a reservation from mobilization and a preferential mortgage. And I understand why this happens. What if one of them suddenly stops supporting the digital service for voting for mayor or president or another equally important resource? Previously, the same attitude was towards physicists, on whom the security of the country depended, and I believe that it is time to return this attitude everywhere.
By the way, in my opinion, it would not hurt us to restore cohesion in our scientific circles . Against the backdrop of the fact that institutes as a whole received more funding, at the very least, the equipment base began to be updated, new grants appeared, and we lost the sense of community that we felt 10 years ago.
— In leading countries this is being closely monitored. Consortia and inter-institutional centers are being created, professors are moving from one institute to another, student exchanges and conferences are being encouraged. In general, any movement in this direction is welcome.
And now we have almost stopped meeting with colleagues, and the platforms for meetings and discussions of our primary plans have noticeably decreased, each organization seems to have pupated into its own shell. The mobility of scientists even within the country has decreased. They forgot that openness makes it possible to exchange scientific information and ideas on the organization of science. While large scientific centers such as the Kurchatov Institute can exist without creating consortia, for others it is interaction with their own kind that is the only opportunity to begin active movement forward. After all, now, as in the fairy tale about Alice in Wonderland, in order to become one of the countries with strong scientific and technological potential, we need to run at least twice as fast!